Jorge Urbiola reflects on Kazakhstan-Spain cooperation: strategic partnership continues to grow from railways to cultural diplomacy
In an exclusive interview with Kazinform News Agency, Jorge Urbiola, former Ambassador of Spain to Kazakhstan, discusses the evolution of the strategic partnership between the two nations. He highlights successes in various sectors such as transportation, petrochemicals, and cultural diplomacy, emphasizing the quality of their cooperation and its ongoing expansion into new areas like subsoil mapping and sports.
In your opinion, what are the key avenues of bilateral cooperation between our countries and what are the greatest achievements?
Being our relation a strategic relation, the main objective is to make it as wide as possible, to touch all different venues from political, to economy, to cultural, to consular. In this respect, we have had quite a lot of achievements. The foundations were set by the signing of the strategic partnership back in 2010, which made our two countries become partners to the fullest extent of the word, which is something of no minor importance in international relations. Since then, ours has been an ever-growing relationship. I’ll name a few achievements. As you probably know, one of the top Spanish railway companies, Talgo, has been very active in Kazakhstan over the last 20 years. But not only railway transportation. Next fall, the first Airbus A400M, which is one of the most advanced transport carriers in the world, will arrive in Kazakhstan. This airplane is assembled in Spain in the city of Sevilla. The petrochemical sector is a newcomer in our relation. Overall, we try to touch upon as many sectors as possible; but rather than the quantity, I would underline the quality of our relationship. The sectors I’ve mentioned are strategic ones, transportation, petrochemical, which brings the bilateral relations to another level.
The majority of Kazakh exports to Spain are hydrocarbons. What steps do the sides take to diversify the exports?
It has indeed been so for many years, which on the other hand created a huge trade deficit for Spain, of around $2.5 billion per year. But the examples I just gave you (A400M, petrochemical sector), will soon start to compensate for that deficit. Step by step more Spanish companies are arriving in Kazakhstan.
Recently, Kazakhstan and Spain expressed their readiness to cooperate in the new field of groundwater exploration. Why is Spain interested in this particular area of cooperation and how much are you willing to invest in this, if you allow me to ask?
Let me clarify the wording of your question. Rather than an interest from our part in collaborating in underwater exploration, this collaboration comes from the advanced Spanish technology in mapping the subsoil. I will elaborate on this. Kazakhstan has one of the richest subsoils in the world. Nevertheless, your maps date back to the times of the Soviet Union and only reach down to 60-90 m. The technology of the Spanish company Xcalibur, can reach down to 600 meters, or even deeper than a kilometer depending on the type of ground. Your government has signed an agreement with Xcalibur to map the whole country, having in mind that this is the only company in the world which can map the subsoil from airplanes. The size of Kazakhstan is too big for mapping with helicopters. On the other hand, the Ministry of Water Resources also wants to benefit from this project, since water management has become an issue of major concern in Kazakhstan. Hence the interest in groundwater exploration. Conversations between Minister Nurzhigitov and the CEO of Xcalibur were successful, and the Embassy of Spain is ready to support any Kazakh delegation which would like to visit Spain and see on the ground the Spanish experience. As I said to the Minister, Kazakhstan should benefit from our experience. The region of Murcia is one of the driest in Europe, and has developed out of necessity the most advanced water irrigation system in the world.
Is this project already implemented?
No, the Kazakh government is still working on the financing. It’s in the interest of your country, so I’m optimistic a solution will be soon reached. If you know what you have in your subsoil, it will be easier for foreign mining companies to invest here, because they will know exactly where to drill. In short, it will be a game changer for Kazakhstan. And I’m especially pleased that a Spanish company will be part of this win-win equation.
Are you interested in any particular district or area of Kazakhstan?
The mapping will touch upon the whole country; raw materials, minerals, underwater reservoirs.
From 2012 to 2022, trade turnover between Kazakhstan and Spain increased more than fourfold. The lion's share of trade between countries is occupied, as you already mentioned, by the oil and gas industry.
We are working as I said to diversify the economic relations, with an ever growing success. In what other sectors can our two nations work well in the future? I've been visiting as many oblasts as possible during my years here, analyzing with my economic team the needs of foreign investment of the regions so as to get a clear picture which will allow us to match them up with the strong points of Spanish companies. Step by step the work has proved to be successful. As regards new sectors, fashion is a good example. One of the top retail brands in the world, Inditex and Zara, has been successfully working in Kazakhstan. They are now employing over a thousand local employees. In the health sector, the Spanish company IberHospitex has signed a joint venture with a Kazakh company and is assembling catheters for heart surgery at the Technopark of Nazarbayev University in Astana and then delivering it to the rest of Central Asia. Several turn-key projects in other sectors are in the pipeline. In short, even though the figures of crude oil exports are still a huge part of the lion’s share, diversification is gradually gaining ground.
In your opinion, what would be the most beneficial sector to look into right now to diversify cooperation even more?
As I’ve already mentioned, the petrochemical sector. I’ve also mentioned the region of Murcia, the driest in Europe. Some regions here in Kazakhstan are as dry as Murcia. Irrigation is hence a sector that needs to be developed.
As you may know, there have recently been severe floods in Kazakhstan. How did they combat such phenomena in Spain?
There used to be a time, more than half a century ago, some Spanish cities such as Zaragoza or Valencia, were periodically subjected to severe flooding. Thanks to technology and huge investments, these sad times are history. The construction of big underground reservoirs has played a pivotal role. They can store huge amounts of extra water when it rains excessively, and release it later when the danger has passed. Additionally, conservation measures are being implemented. The rivers are being cleaned every year, riverbeds are being widened, containment walls have been erected and a resilient civil protection system has been put into effect. The control of floods has been a great success story in Spain, thanks to the collaboration between companies, citizens and government on the national, regional and municipal levels.
Is there a possibility for our countries to collaborate on tackling this issue?
Certainly, whenever Kazakhstan wants to know about our experience, we will be ready. You have a very active Ambassador in Spain, and I am sure that when the moment comes, we can collaborate in this area.
Starting next year, the tax code will change in Kazakhstan, which is going to affect foreign investors and businesses. What changes will be made to the work of Spanish businesses' representatives in Kazakhstan, taking into account these amendments to the tax code?
So far, no Spanish companies have transmitted to us that they will be affected by the changes to the tax code. At any rate, balance is needed. On the one hand, respect for the legal order of the country. Spanish companies do comply. On the other hand, avoiding retroactivity. Kazakhstan does also comply.
What is the most attractive about Kazakhstan to Spanish investors?
Traditionally, Spanish companies have been very active in America, taking into account there are more than 20 Spanish-speaking countries with similar mentalities. But our companies are progressively turning their eyes to Kazakhstan. The reasons? Respect to legal order, a well trained human capital and the fact that Kazakhstan is a rich country with easy access to financing and a healthy business climate.
Are you able to talk about any upcoming projects in any of the sectors? Maybe you can give a hint?
I have already mentioned the project of Xcalibur. And above all, the petrochemical project which is in the pipeline.
Recently, the capital of Kazakhstan hosted the SCO Summit. How do you assess the development of such large- scale organizations as SCO and the United Nations, and what reforms, in your opinion, are necessary for the development of these organizations?
When countries come to work together, this is always good news. European countries learned from the devastating experience of the Second World War and created the European Union. My country is part of several organizations. We have different "international souls." On the one hand, the European one. On the other hand, we are part of the Ibero-American community and we are also part of the Mediterranean Sea, which encompasses countries from the south of Europe and from the north of Africa, mainly Arab countries. We have active organizations in all these geopolitical areas. Kazakhstan is in a way similar to Spain. You do have a proactive and constructive foreign policy with as many countries as possible. You have two big neighbors, China and Russia, but also maintain good relations with Europe, the United States or the United Kingdom. As regards your question, rather than giving advice on the internal functioning of the SCO, I would underline the need to use these new structures as bridges, not as a way of creating blocks which compete with each other.
Leonardo da Vinci's painting, La Bella Principessa, was recently brought to Kazakhstan. Are there plans to bring masterpieces of Spanish painters or other valuable cultural objects of Spain to Kazakhstan as well?
Let me first tell you that as a diplomat, I've always attached a lot of importance to cultural diplomacy. Diplomacy is not just about politics or economy, but also about culture because it unites people. As regards your question, the Prado Museum (which has the greatest collection of paintings in the world) has a program to bring Spanish masterpieces outside of Spain. I explained this to a former director of the National Museum, but then there were changes at the direction level and no more talks about it. As regards contemporary art, one of the top Spanish painters and a celebrated artist worldwide, José María Cano, traveled last year to Kazakhstan to present his exhibitions at the Kasteev Museum in Almaty and the National Museum in Astana. The success and media coverage was huge. And we should not forget music in the field of art.
Could you tell us more about recent cultural collaborations in the area of music?
Yes, I have countless examples. My collaboration with the Astana Ballet and Astana Opera has proved to be very successful. Several Spanish artists have performed here over the last few years. Soloists or quartets, we have enjoyed cello players, accordionists, sopranos, let alone the instrument which best represents the Spanish soul, the flamenco guitar. I’m especially proud of having brought together on stage a Spanish guitar (Amos Lora) and a dombra. They performed music of the celebrated Spanish composer Paco de Lucía. The experience was so unique and the energy created among the musicians was so magical that we intend to promote an album combining Kazakh and Spanish music, performed by a dombra and a flamenco guitar.
Are there any plans to bring historical artifacts or manuscripts from Spain to Kazakhstan?
We had a very good collaboration with the House of Old Manuscripts and Rare Books. They intend to travel to Spain to meet their counterparts. They are also considering bringing an old Spanish manuscript here, but this is still at a very early stage.
You mentioned the collaboration between flamenco guitar and dombra. Are you planning to bring this concert to other cities in Kazakhstan or even to Spain?
When the album is released we will certainly think about it.
You mentioned Salvador Dalí. Could you tell us about the recent exhibition of his works in Kazakhstan?
Last month in Almaty, a very active gallery collaborated with us to organize an exhibition of Salvador Dalí. Salvador Dalí, the master of surrealism and one of my favorite painters, was featured in this exhibition. It was a huge success, and it was a great honor for me to see how Kazakh people enjoyed the exhibition.
Culture is not only about art but also about cuisine. Do you have any favorite dishes in Kazakh cuisine?
Of course, I have some favorite restaurants that I really love. When I have visitors from abroad, I try to take them to Kazakh restaurants rather than just international ones. Beshbarmak was the first dish I tried on my first day here, but I have to say I love the fish beshbarmak made with fish from the Caspian Sea. I also like kumis a lot—it's very healthy for the lungs. When I arrived here, I was told that during COVID times, many people drank kumis because it helps your lungs become stronger. Since I had a very bad case of COVID myself, I tried kumis, and since then, I've become a fan of it.
What can you say about the collaboration between our countries in education?
Education is a key factor. I've seen how young Kazakh students like to study abroad. This new generation of Kazakh people is very educated and has very good professional skills. A few months ago, we had a visit from rectors and representatives of 20 Spanish universities. They were positively surprised, and we are working on expanding our collaboration among universities.
Are you planning to bring more Spanish universities to Kazakhstan?
We will start with small steps. The main result of this field trip by Spanish universities was the realization that it's necessary to start little by little, not by creating a whole university from scratch. They are in contact to develop joint programs with Kazakh universities. We also have collaborations in sports. Recently, Atlético de Madrid opened an academy in Almaty, focusing not only on football but also on education. We are also working with Real Madrid, which has a university, to see if we can open an academy here in the near future. There, kids will not only play football but also study and learn Spanish because languages are the bridge among countries.
Are there any special projects that are your favorite in the cultural exchange between our countries?
Yes, indeed. Taking into consideration two things: first, that sports are a part of culture, and second, that Kazakhstan is a country that loves sports, I have a project that stands out. I realized how important the work of the Bolashak Foundation is, especially for disadvantaged or special needs children. Last year, in collaboration with the Bolashak Foundation, we decided that Spanish sports would be represented at their annual winter charity ball.
We received an excellent response from Spanish institutions and sports figures. We brought shirts from Real Madrid and Barcelona, signed by all the players, for auction at the Charity Ball. We also secured shirts signed by Rafael Nadal and Carlos Alcaraz, as well as baseball caps signed by Formula One drivers Carlos Sainz, who represents the legendary Ferrari team, and Fernando Alonso, a two-time world champion.
I'm particularly proud of this project because the funds raised were substantial enough to enable the Bolashak Foundation, in collaboration with the Football Federation of Kazakhstan, to launch a National League for kids with autism and special needs last month. It's incredibly gratifying to see how Spanish sports celebrities have contributed to such a meaningful cause.
Above all, I’ve spent 3 amazing years in an amazing country, this will stay in my heart forever. The bilateral relation has grown as explained, and I’m certain that my successor will keep on boosting it with the same passion that I put on the endeavor.
